Allright, all you armchair theologians and back room biblical pundits - this one's for you.
"It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble." - Rom. 14:21
Ah, yes...that old chestnut. To put it quite succinctly (but hopefully not to simplify it too much), the point of this verse is to admonish more mature Christians to be sensitive to other Christ-followers and exercise their own convictions on spiritual freedom carefully. The example in the context of the verse above was that some more mature Christ-followers had decided that it was okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols based on their study of the scripture and their communication with God, but there were some Christ-followers who had not worked through that issue and it was causing them great consternation and confusion. Paul's admonition was that it would be better to just put aside that activity for the sake of someone else than to indulge in it and cause someone else to fall away from the faith or be hindered in their exercise thereof.
Now that I'm in a band with a bunch of Christian guys who have decided that our ministry is away from the church and out in bars and clubs, this issue is bound to come up. This has brought up a question in my mind as I've been thinking about this topic: when does the phrase "don't do anything to cause a brother to stumble" move from reminder of responsibility on the part of more mature believers to become a shield behind which less mature believers can hide in order to escape dealing with the consequences of their actions?
Hit the jump to explore this further with me...
Another related question I have would be thus: when does an opportunity to rub elbows with those who don't follow Christ which may also be used by Satan to tempt believers into returning to sin become a bad thing, something that the Christ-follower shouldn't do? Clearly, Life On Loan's decision that our ministry is out in the clubs and bars of Austin is at the forefront of this line of thinking. We, as a band, have set up some guidelines amongst ourselves about what activities we participate in as Life On Loan to help us maintain our testimony and integrity when we go out to play our music in those places. But, I can see how the very opportunity that we have to take Christ-influenced music out to folks that normally don't hear it can also create an opportunity for our (perhaps) less-mature Christian friends to be put in a position to be tempted by things that they may be trying to leave behind (in this narrow example, that could be alcohol, drugs, sex, for instance). In this case, where does our responsibility end?
Let me be clear - this in no way is limited to, or meant to provoke a discussion on, the specifics of drinking, drugs, sex, gluttony, pride, what-have-you...this is talking about the overall clash of differing spiritual convictions and weakness on the part of one party that is not present in the other. By way of reminder, let me also bring up the sermon that our pastor delivered a few weeks ago which sets only biblical absolutes ("thou shalt not", "do") as non-negotiable; everything else - spiritual convictions and personal preferences - are things that may not necessarily be imposed upon others and we need to learn how to live in those moments where someone else's negotiables don't match up with our own (and, in fact, may be in direct conflict with them).
So, if I'm in a situation where my conscience is clear with God, I'm interacting with folks that don't yet know him and I've gone to them rather than asking them to come to me, and yet that place is somewhere that could put fellow believers into a mindset where they could slip back into something that is keeping them from being what they could be in Christ, who wins? How much do I worry about secondary or even tertiary relationships when I have a clear conscience in my dealings with those who need to see/hear/feel God through me and haven't been able to yet?
I do think that this mantra has lost a lot of it's potency in recent years, however; I hear this phrase bandied about a lot but mostly when I hear it, I also hear a subtext of "don't do that because that causes friction within me that I don't want to deal with." This admonition was put in place to warn mature believers from trampling on immature believers, but it wasn't carte blanche for those new believers to whip out at a moment's notice to negate the need to work through the issue on their own (and in so doing, become more mature). I can't think of much in this life that is so important for me to do that I would risk causing a brother to fail in his God-given mission; on the other hand, if I worry all the time about what others think and what might cause them trouble, there is no freedom in that. Actions and choices have consequences as well, and I can't (won't) be held responsible for discomfort due to consequences of making wrong choices. Perhaps it may be a little callous, but that's not my cross to bear.
Let me give an example from my high school days. I went to a Christian school and I was in the pep band for basketball games I think my 11th grade year - might have been my senior year. Anyway, we worked on some Beach Boys music and some other fun songs, the feature of which was "Wipeout" so that the drum line could show off a little bit and really go to town. We worked really hard on it and we had a blast every time we practiced - we couldn't wait to get through all the boring fight song stuff so that we could get to the Wipeout!
We got to play that song once.
Our band director (who was a little progressive anyway for such a conservative school) and the principal was inundated with angry letters from parents that couldn't believe we would play that kind of music at a Christian school. The one that really stuck with me, though (and I think the one that ultimately got the band director to pull the music), was a note from a man that talked about how that music took him back to times in his life when he was doing bad things and getting into a lot of trouble. My memory has clouded over time on the specifics, but I believe he went on to say that if we would continue to play that kind of music, he wouldn't come to the games and so forth and so on.
This particular incident was pretty instrumental in that band director actually moving on to take a job at another school, and he was crushed by the people's responses. The band was also crushed as well, and a lot of us were angry. The incident pretty much killed the pep band from that point forward, and caused a lot of frustration amongst the students who felt even more so in their teenage angst that adults didn't understand them and cared more about their own feelings than those of us that worked very hard on making that music good. Was the song so important that it needed to be played to the detriment of the man who wrote the letter? No. But was that man's inability to deal with his own past and mistakes so important that it was worth crushing a band director for and sapping the spirit of the kids in the band and turning the whole thing sour? I say equally no. Let's say it was 10 people that had that problem...does anything change? I say no. At some point, someone's gotta stand up and say, "Look - my conscience is clear before God and these people who I'm trying to reach. You need to go work this out for yourself and if it turns out that you just can't get past it, we'll see what compromise we can come to. But you have to take some time and at least try to work on it first."
What are your thoughts about this issue? This one's wide open, so feel free to editorialize if you so choose. Go therefore and comment likewise.
Some random thoughts.
First, Paul was writing this to believers as an admonition for unity within the church. The central idea is to edify one another, and put the other person's needs before your own. The reason given is to avoid destroying the work of God. He was writing about those activities that were not biblical absolutes.
Second...as I read vs 21, I don't know that I would read that stumbling (falling in the NIV) is exclusively sin. If Paul were referring to sin, why wouldn't he have just said that? Perhaps his meaning here is publicly refrain from anything that would cause someone to no longer grow in Christ.
An example might be where an immature believer sees a mature believer drinking a glass of wine with dinner. The immature believer might think that to be wrong, and because of the apparent wrong doing by someone he looks up to in the faith, he decides that Christianity is not real, and stops his walk with Christ. If the mature believer knows that this is s struggle for someone, he is responsible for putting that one's needs before his freedom
However what you are referring to is a different situation. It sounds like there are believers who are using your venues to commit sins that DO violate biblical absolutes (i.e. drinking to excess).
In the case where a brother is committing public sin in your presence, I believe the Bible gives clear direction on our Godly responsibility that we are to go privately to that brother. If he continues in that sin, it is eventually to be taken to the church.
If the issue is that there are immature believers that are falling away from their faith because you are playing in bars, then I think you are faced with a dilemma.
A hypothetical example. What if you felt called to preach in bars. You knew without a doubt God had called you to that. And also without a doubt those in the bar knew what you were doing there. If a weak believer saw you go into the bar, then later asked you about it, you could take him with you to show him that you were engaged in ministry, not debauchery. The demonstration that you were doing Gods will for you could mitigate the situation and help the weak believer have a broader understanding of ministry.
Now let's talk about LOL.
(1) Are you certain that God has called you to minister in clubs and bars, or is your desire to play music unfettered by church oversight causing you to rationalize?
(2) If this is God's call on the band, is what you do obviously ministry to those who hear it? Could weak Christians tell the difference in your message and any of the other bands that played that night? Will seekers and the unchurched be challenged by what you sing? Are you blending in or standing out?
(3) If your ministry is to the seekers and unchurched, why would you invite a bunch of believers to be in the club with you? In other words your ministry isn't for them...right?
Would it be wiser to tell people "hey, we are playing in a club. This isn't for everyone. If you struggle with sin when you are in a club, please support us by praying for us and not coming out to hear us. Our calling is to reach the unreached. We are confident in our calling and are blameless before Christ. We love you and want you to abstain from anything that would cause you to sin."
If they show up and get drunk, then I think it IS your responsibility to address that Biblically.
Let me have a few drinks and get back to you on this one.
Mark: First of all, I can't yet answer all of your specific questions because we've only had one show, so there's not really a pattern yet to work from. To answer the third question, though, we think that our music could be a ministry to both believers and not alike - non-believers might hear something that resonates with them and gives an opportunity for the Spirit to speak with them, Christ-followers might hear something that they identify with and realize that there's someone else who follows Christ that is in the same spot that they are. And, as I stated in a previous blog entry, we're in the "cred building phase" as every band needs to do - we're getting out there and mainly showing that a) we can draw an audience and b) that we can really play good music so that we can get better timeslots for more exposure. We didn't just invite our Christian friends - we all invited just about everybody we knew. We want our music to be heard by everybody, regardless of belief...personally, I don't really see why there needs to be a separation of ministry to "only non-believers" or "primarily Christ-followers" - as Rodney King famously said, "can't we all just get along?" A secondary benefit of having other Christians in the audience would be that hopefully they would be available to not only bring folks to the shows that need to hear the message, but might also be looking for opportunities to meet others that happen to be there and perhaps strike up some sort of relationship.
Like I said in the post, we as a band have set some standards for ourselves to hopefully set us apart from other bands just like you mentioned - only time will tell if those guidelines will have the desired effect. I do agree that we would be well-served to express the disclaimer (for lack of a better term) that you mentioned to let people know where we stand, and we've been talking about that a little bit here and there. Personally, I've sort of recoiled from the idea of "church oversight" because of my feelings on being labeled as "Christian" with all the connotations that come with it. The Christian community has a horrible habit of claiming things that are "Christian" and really doing more detriment than benefit. I don't want to deny my Christianity; but I also want people to see my real Christianity rather than anybody else's idea of what it is. Pretty much every non-Christian who has heard us (that we know of and have talked to) knows that we're a band of Christians.
I think my real struggle here is with my expectations of the maturity level of people and what my responsibility is in that arena. In my mind, it makes logical sense that if I'm having trouble with something - say I was into drugs at one point - it wouldn't make any sense for me to hang out with my drug dealing friends, or drive by the places where I used to buy, or be a part of any of that lifestyle until I had dealt with it before God. If I had a friend who was like, "hey, I"m going to hang out here - wanna come?", I would expect that if I said yes then there would be a pretty good chance that I'd end up on a bender. What I'm seeing recently - and this is even prior to LOL's emergence into the public sector - is that there's a continual desire to "play it safe" and not be faced with that situation where you - YOU - have to say no and make the decision not to participate in something. I'm having quite a hard time with having to actually state the obvious of "now look, if you have a problem with this, you shouldn't show up". The other key thing that isn't happening is what you stated in your comment: "If a weak believer saw you go into the bar, then later asked you about it"...that's not happening. People aren't asking, they're assuming. Appropriate confrontation is woefully lacking in the Christian circles that I run around in these days. Everybody's got an opinion or expectation but nobody voices it to the person or persons able to actually do something about it.
Enh, sorry...I think I'm losing my logic here and am devolving into complaints of my own, so I'm gonna cut this portion short. I apologize if I went a little too far off the rails there.
Jason: Make sure to pour some out for the homies, and then feel free to wax poetic.
A couple of clarifications. I don't think that the band is solely responsible for confronting those believers who might engage in sinful activities at your shows. Chances are you might not see it given you are probably a bit busy with your set. There were believers there who witnessed the behavior...they have a Godly responsibility too.
Agree with your comment on how poorly we do confrontation. We are working to address that by doing some confronting and helping others to learn how to do it properly and well.
Finally...what I was trying to point out (and probably used too many words and muddied it up), is that I don't think the issue here is the eating of meat/drinking of wine issue Paul was addressing. I don't think people in YSA are murmuring about you planing in clubs...or if they are it hasn't come to my attention.
Rather, the issue is one of biblical absolutes where people used your venues to perhaps justify or display their behavior.
Given that, I think there is a different response than if there were murmuring about where you were playing.
this has ALWAYS been a major issue with me. i remember back in high school i was at an FCA gathering, and i made the remark that it was a sin for any christian of any age to drink alcohol, because it could cause another person to stumble.... of course that did not go over well with the methodists. needless to say i was a quite naive, but i miss that naivety. i think that's kind of what God means when he says come to Him as children... as adults we can justify all sorts of things with shades of grey. but it's right there... in black and white... what we should and shouldn't do.
Mark: Thanks for the clarification - I appreciate that. This is definitely an area where my "Sad/Mad/Bad" can come roiling out of me like Niagara Falls. I believe that the band was beyond reproach at our gig, and I believe that we'll be beyond reproach in the future as well; what rankles me is that notion that you were talking about in regards to others using us to justify their behavior. I don't know that the behavior is our responsibility to correct, but it still irritates me that this issue has to come up at all at this stage in the game. But I appreciate your comments and your input, and I also appreciate your position - thanks for sharing.
Carrie: I also appreciate your comments - thank you for commenting on this issue and jumping into the fray. I think I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this point by offering a bit of a challenge to show me a biblical basis for your position that "it was a sin for any christian of any age to drink alcohol, because it could cause another person to stumble." I put this forward based in part on the comments that Mark made about what the root issue could be here, as well as in concert with the notion of biblical absolutes vs. spiritual convictions vs. personal preferences. I think you'd be hard pressed to find something specific about alcohol or smoking or whatnot because the specific actions aren't the root issue - the deeper things that are at the root of the behavior are the real issue (e.g. it's not the drinking of alcohol that is the problem, it's the losing control and becoming a slave to drunkenness rather than a slave to the Spirit that is the problem).
I'm bringing forth this challenge a little bit because I see that we (Christians as a whole) are oftentimes focusing on the wrong issues here and I would assert that the idea that everything is "right there...in black and white...what we should and shouldn't do" leads us to set up a false sense of spirituality and a "grading level" that is dangerously close to legalism. I don't believe that every specific is covered in black and white - I believe that God left us a lot of wiggle room to exercise that whole free will thing. ;) My opinion is that Paul's entire point was that the Christian life isn't just a list of "do this" and "don't do that" but is rather about using what Christ taught us and listening to his Spirit to help us figure out how to handle things that clash with our spiritual convictions.
I'll repeat my question to see if it jars loose some new discussion - if I'm constantly worried about "someone" seeing what I'm doing and stumbling, where is the notion of Christian freedom? I'm pretty sure that just about anything I do has the potential to give someone pause somewhere - driving too fast, eating certain foods, listening to certain music, drinking certain things, smoking cigars, wearing certain clothes to church, whatever. How can there be freedom in that sort of life?
well, that's not exactly what i meant… i struggle with talking on issues like this and can see that i didn’t express myself well.
just to clarify, that is what i believed in high school... and, i know i was a bit too naive in my thinking. however, i still try to revert my thinking back to that time, when i struggle with understanding Christ in a particular issue. over the years, my view of Christ has become clouded by the world.
i don't often do this... but here is my opinion on the entire subject…
i don’t personally believe that drinking, as a whole, is a sin. i struggle with drinking publicly, because i would hate for someone to see me and it have an affect on my witness to them. i believe my witness should be on the forefront of my mind.
our calling is to first and foremost bring the truth to those who do not have it. i believe Jesus would be found in the same bars, preaching His truth. i don’t think He would be engaged in the activities of the bar.
i think it all boils down to asking yourself what Jesus would do, (as cliché as that may sound) and following your spiritual convictions.
as far as being responsible for other Christian’s choices… i think that if you are on your mission to further the kingdom of Christ, then that in no way can be a stumbling block for another Christian. how you conduct yourself while you are there, could possibly be. if being there with you is something they are not able to handle, then the stumbling block is the bar, and not you or your mission.
regarding freedom… what is freedom, really? everything comes with a price… a choice to be made, and consequences for that choice. no one has absolute freedom. So how is spiritual freedom any different? we were put here on this earth for one purpose, to serve God. i think the freedom comes in doing what we were purposed to do. i don’t personally believe that freedom means we can do whatever we want to do.
I think it has a lot to do with how you are living out in the beattitudes. In this situation, you are laying your foundation to present Christ on a stage, hoping your music/lyrics reasonates with someone to have the opportunity to share more; but yet the "spotlight" is literally on you from all ends (as believers who know you, and non-believers who don't); on how you guys are out of the spotlight. Does the message of the music reasonate in their lives?
So I think the balance of the question you ask of "When do you and your actions/non-actions, become a stumbling block?" The answer truly is when you stop living "Poor in spirit." When what you do on and off the stage becomes all about you instead of Christ you serve. When you become unteachable, not just about music, but how the Lord is guiding you. When you become unteachable in the essence of allowing the Lord to grow you in other areas. The whole concept of "Taking every thought captive" is put aside because you know it will lead you to where you don't want to go.
This concept (Taking every thought captive) is truly about weighing, and self-examination of your motives, heart, actions, reasoning of why you did something, etc; and searching for the fruit that it bore. Did these things produce unconditional love, by way of bringing joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, and self-control?
Or did these things produce self-gratification, sensual lust and pride, carelessness, idolatry, fits of rage, rivalry, dissension, drug use, drunkeness, division, jealousy, envy, and self-indulgence?
When you find that it is the latter of the two; it then becomes a question of "Are you allowing the Lord to change you to make it His Fruit by being poor in spirit? Or are you closing that door to the Lord by saying, 'It's not my conviction?'"
I think it's easy for Christians to say, "Well Jesus hung out with the sinners of his day!" Yet we don't look at how He interacted with the sinners of His day. His purpose was not to just "hang out" with them for the sake of hanging out; but He would gently confront their sins with unconditional love; showing them the core of Who He was (and is, and is to come for that matter).
So, I would leave it with several questions: What is your purpose? Do you (and the band) consistently evaluate your actions/non-actions both on and off the stage through prayer, and the Word of God; to balance what is producing the Fruit of the Spirit; and cutting out the fruit of the flesh? When faced with fleshly fruit, are you allowing yourself to be broken, teachable, and obedient to how the Lord wants to work in your life to rid of that fruit? When you leave a show, did you impact a non-believer with the unconditional love of Christ, and show them Who He is; or did you just entertain and hang out with them?
Mmmm...very good discussion for a Monday morning. :) Thanks for taking the time to clarify your points and positions - in an issue which is (obviously) as murky as this one is, I appreciate people's willingness to say, "this is where I stand right now, even though I still struggle with this or don't know what the concrete answer is." That's where I am, anyway. :)
Those are pretty good questions, MC Pee Pants. :) Like I said when Mark asked similar questions, I can't really answer them right now because we don't yet have a baseline to work from as far as impact, responses to flesh, fruit that has been born, etc. Only time will tell in that case...hopefully I can answer them a little better in 6 months or so.
Kudos to y'all for pointing out the flipside of the argument which is that many of us use the whole freedom thing as an excuse NOT to change and to keep on sinning. I can definitely see that as a danger for me personally, and something that I need to keep in check because I've been wanting this for so long, and I personally struggle with not speaking up for Christ in the world when I should. The music I'm playing has Christ in it, but I cannot rely on that alone to do the work or completely communicate Christ in the manner that someone needs to hear him.
In a situation like this, however, which is obviously a performance and has a large entertainment component - people don't come to a club expecting to be confronted with 4 guys who believe in Christ enough to have it come out in their music, by and large - how can impact be determined? Personally, music usually takes a while to sink in before it really catches me. I've talked through this question with a bandmate or two, and I think it's an important component of the arguments that everyone has made here as it seems to be the benchmark of being stumblingblock vs. opportunity for growth. Is impact measured by how many people we talk to after a show on average (and I really don't think you're saying this)? How does one measure something as subjective as "impact" when it comes to something as subjective as music itself?
That seems to be the crux of the issue for me, which Carrie brought out nicely - if we're having an impact on non-believers, then how can that be a cause for stumbling? The question then becomes one of how to measure or quantify that impact - and I don't really know how to do that.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
hmmmm... well, have you thought of expanding the ministry beyond the band members?
I would think that if someone were to attend as a friend of the band, and then behave in a way that is unbecoming of Christ… that would be more a situation of them hindering the bands influence… and much less of the band hindering them.
Maybe ask people willing to minister with you to come, maybe wear a LOL shirt, behave in a Christ-like manner, … and be there to talk to those who may have an interest.
just a thought.
You said, "In a situation like this, however, which is obviously a performance and has a large entertainment component - people don't come to a club expecting to be confronted with 4 guys who believe in Christ enough to have it come out in their music, by and large - how can impact be determined?"
I think it's fair to say that the sinners Jesus came in contact with didn't expect to be confronted with the message that Jesus had for them. The impact of what Jesus did was evidence of itself; and the impact (again) was the showing of unconditional love. In a music situation, where you want you music/lyrics to be thought provoking (which takes time to soak in); another question you can ask yourself is regarding presentation. How are you presenting the music/lyrics to be thought provoking? Are you sharing a little story behind why you write and play what you write and play? Are you creating an opportunity to become more transparent and vulnerable with your audience? Are you creating opportunities to impact their lives as Jesus did?
I mean, you don't have to go out and say, "I love Jesus, which is why I wrote this song." But something like, "I was in a situation at one point in life, where I was empty inside; and seeking an answer to why I was feeling empty despite having things going well for me. I wrote this song out of those feelings; as well as some of the answers I've found. I haven't found a complete answer, and in a lot of ways I am still in the process of discovering. But I hope if you're in the same boat; that the music and lyrics of this will reasonate inside. We, as a band, are open to interacting and conversating with you after the show to discuss these things openly, and maybe help you gain a different perspective with where you are at, and help you in your discovery process."
At the same time, only the Lord can truly measure the impact of this. If you look at the parable of the sower, we are not called to cultivate the seed; but to simply spread the seed, letting it fall where it may. The "watering" that we do is when they accept the message, and it then becomes our responsibility in "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you" (Matthew 28:20a). There may be times where we truly know the outcome in measureable ways; but 9 times out of 10, it is more than likely not ours to measure. I think the measurement is having that peace in your heart, when you ask yourselves the questions, "Did I do everything I could to make opportunities to present the unconditional love of Christ tonight through the show and conversations afterward? Did I do everything I could to present the unconditional love of Christ when I took those opportunities?" Then, if you feel you could have done something more; put it in the bank for your next show to do.
Again, you're not going to have all the answers; but the only way you are going to be able to grow in this; is by doing what you know to do now. This is why Jesus compared it to finances and investing. You don't see the immediate results every single time; but in order to gain you have to invest; even if the amount invested seems to be a little and insignificant.
Indeed - it may take us some time to see some fruits (although I think we've already seen some), but I believe that the band was beyond reproach and our mission (at least in my mind) is clear. I think that it behooves us to be watching out a little more for those that we invite directly and be careful for them as we watch our own testimonies and such. As long as I feel God smiling on me when I do this, I'm gonna do it.
I'm glad that there wasn't any sort of quantitative answer given to my question on impact - I would have been distressed if there was. ;) I think we've done everything so far that we can to be ready for opportunities and now we just have to execute on them and be prepared to answer questions and get down & dirty with people when they ask. We'll communicate this to our friends and hopefully they'll get the idear as well.